Next Economy Now: Redistributing Wealth and Power

Written By Nwamaka Agbo

FROM: NEXT ECONOMY NOW PODCAST

In this episode of Next Economy Now, host Ryan Honeyman sits down with Nwamaka Agbo, CEO of the Kataly Foundation, to explore how wealth redistribution must be paired with power redistribution to truly transform our economic systems. Drawing on her Restorative Economics framework, Agbo discusses the shift from traditional philanthropy to relationship-based funding, where decision-making authority rests with those most impacted by systemic inequities. From supporting community-owned real estate cooperatives in Oakland to empowering environmental justice leaders across the country, Agbo outlines a vision for a new economy rooted in shared prosperity, democratic governance, and long-term community resilience.

 

Key Takeaways

  • Philanthropy as a Tool, Not an End: Agbo argues that while the sector of ultra-wealthy philanthropy ideally shouldn’t exist if tax structures were just, the tools themselves—like donor-advised funds, or DAFs—are neutral. The impact depends on whether they are used to hoard capital or to rapidly redistribute resources to communities in need.

  • Relationship-Based Over Trust-Based Philanthropy: Moving beyond buzzwords, Agbo defines Kataly’s approach as deeply relational. This means two-way trust, reduced bureaucratic reporting, and the willingness of funders to offer technical assistance and coaching, not just checks, based on what grantees actually ask for.

  • Decision-Making Power Belongs to Practitioners: Unlike traditional foundations where boards approve grants, Kataly empowers its program leads—who often have direct grassroots experience—to make final funding decisions. This decentralizes power and ensures that those closest to the work determine how resources are allocated.

  • General Operating Support as Affirmation of Existence: Providing multi-year general operating support is framed as a radical act of validation. It signals to marginalized communities that their organizations are expected to survive and thrive into the future, countering the precarity often enforced by restrictive, project-specific grantmaking.

  • The Need for Builders, Not Just Critics: In response to current global crises, Agbo emphasizes that pushing back against oppressive systems is no longer enough. We urgently need “doers and builders” willing to engage in the tedious, technical work of creating sustainable business models, cooperative housing, and local infrastructure to build the tangible alternatives we want to transition into.

Full Transcript

00:00:07

>> Ryan Honeyman, Host

Welcome to Next Economy Now. The goal of this podcast series is to highlight the leaders who are taking a regenerative, bioregional, equitable, democratic, racially just, and whole systems approach to creating the new economy. 

00:00:27

I'm Ryan Honeyman, a partner at LIFT Economy. My guest today is Nwamaka Agbo. Nwamaka is the CEO of the Kataly Foundation and Managing Director of Kataly’s Restorative Economies Fund. The Restorative Economies Fund is grounded and guided by Nwamaka’s framework on Restorative Economics. Prior to Kataly, Nwamaka provided technical assistance and strategic guidance to community-owned and community wealth-building initiatives as a consultant with a background in community organizing, electoral campaigns, policy and advocacy work on racial social, and environmental justice issues. Nwamaka is deeply committed to supporting projects that build resilient, healthy, and self-determined communities rooted in shared prosperity. 

00:01:11

She graduated from UC Davis with a bachelor's degree in Sociology and African American Studies and holds a Masters of Public Administration specializing in Financial Management from San Francisco State University. Nwamaka, welcome to the show.

00:01:24

>> Nwamaka Agbo

Thanks so much for having me, Ryan. Good to see you again.

00:01:27

>> Ryan Honeyman

Yeah, I guess welcome back. We were joking before recording that it's been four years since you were last on. Nothing's changed. 

00:01:35

>> Nwamaka Agbo

I mean, you know a few more wrinkles but you know, we'll take it. 

00:01:38

>> Ryan Honeyman

Well how about we start if folks haven't listened to that past episode—can we start with a bit about your background and how you first got interested in the work you're doing today?

00:01:46

>> Nwamaka Agbo

Yeah, thanks for the invitation to do the recap. So some years ago when we had first connected, I was in the process of working on a set of projects, specifically Restore Oakland, which is a project in the East Oakland Fruitvale neighborhood. And then also a project—back then it was called Democratizing Capital East Bay. Now it's referred to as the REAL People's Fund, and these two projects kind of served as my capstone for testing out a hypothesis that I was really trying to understand in terms of: What's at the intersection of economy and democracy? And, how do we develop projects that allow us to really transition out of an extractive economic system? And, how do we use those projects also as proving grounds, testing grounds for what democracy looks like in action, right? 

And so the Restorative Economics framework was something that I designed to guide my consulting practice, to really hold me accountable to my values and commitment to racial and gender justice, equality and liberation, and figure out what it looks like to really support communities. And not just naming their hopes and visions for the future, but to have the technical skills, the expertise to actively build the types of neighborhoods and communities and projects that they wanted to be a part of and they want to live in. 

00:03:12

And so, since then I've been able to really use the framework to grow my consulting practice and one of the things that came out of the many projects that I worked on across the country, and even some international projects, was that so much of the time, the barriers that communities were experienced was accessing the type of capital that they needed to make these projects possible. And so when we have a deep understanding of the racial wealth gap—particularly how it plays out in the Global North in the United States, but also the inequalities between the Global North and the Global South around the world—we come to understand that the traditional financial systems and tools we use don't actually meet the needs and interests of those communities that have been locked out and left behind and haven't had access to capital. 

00:04:02

And so I ended up finding that a lot of my time was to support projects and developing what's called “the capital stack,” right, so the different forms of capital that they might need across the timeline of development of their project and then helping to identify potential funders and investors. And so what happened there is that in wanting to support projects and fundraising for their initiatives, I also then ended up engaging with wealthy individuals, donors, and foundations that are trying to figure out how do they also move their resources in a more values-aligned way. So, starting to also do some strategic advising work with foundations and financial institutions that were really committed and interested in trying to live into their values and understanding what that looked like in practice. 

00:04:51

And so fast forward through a number of different projects and a lot of great people, I now find myself leading the Kataly Foundation, which is a deep honor.

00:05:01

>> Ryan Honeyman

Wow. And could you give folks a sense of what the Kataly Foundation is and why it was started?

00:05:07

>> Nwamaka Agbo

Sure. So our mission at the Kataly Foundation is to redistribute our assets in a way that we build the political, economic, and cultural power of Black, Indigenous, and all communities of color. We're deeply committed to figuring out how we take the assets that capitalized our foundation and move them in a way to communities that really centers their needs, their voices, their interests in the most non-extractive, relational-based way. 

00:05:36

Our foundation was capitalized at the end of 2018, and we were really fortunate enough to have an amazing set of board members. Our board is made up of Regan Pritzker, who also serves on the Libra Foundation, alongside her family. And then we also have Chris Olin, who is Regan's partner, and then Susan Pritzker, who is Regan's mother. And so we are a private family foundation that was developed with the mission of not only to be deeply committed to supporting Black and brown communities, but to also redistribute our assets over the life of the foundation.

00:06:18

And so by redistributing our assets that means we're actually not looking to exist into perpetuity. We want to move our resources in a way that builds up the community wealth, the resilience, the self-determination, [and] capacity of those communities that haven't had access to capital before.

00:06:34

>> Ryan Honeyman

That's amazing. And I imagine for you working in the consulting world, you know, you get to work with a lot of different companies, and organizations, and foundations, why make the switch into a role like working for a foundation or leading a foundation? And what did you have to be convinced of to get you to make that switch?

00:06:52

>> Nwamaka Agbo

I like this question of “what did I have to be convinced of.” To be honest, Ryan, I really enjoyed and loved consulting. I got to work with a lot of great projects in a number of different and diverse communities. What that meant is that over the course of my consulting work, I was fortunate enough to have people reach out to me to see if I would take on leadership roles or staffing positions at their organization. 

What ultimately led me to accept the invitation to lead the Kataly Foundation was actually the board. It was actually the fact that these were a set of individuals who I know had already done their work around race, class, and privilege; who were deeply committed to moving their assets; and had already prepared themselves to understand, and to want to create a financial institution that wanted to support those that are mostly impacted. Those with the direct experience of having done the work on the ground would be the decision makers.

00:07:48

And so at Kataly, one of the things that's really unique about how we do our work, particularly on the program side, is that we are a team of what we call practitioner-based funders. Across our Mindfulness and Healing Justice Program area, our Environmental Justice Resourcing Collective, and even the Restorative Economies Fund, we have team members that come out of a direct experience of doing these types of projects—working in grassroots communities on the ground. And so, that then makes it possible for our team to not only move money in the most relational based ways to our grantees, but it also means that we're able to share our skills, our expertise, our knowledge, our networks with our grantees, if that is something that they are interested in and they want. 

00:08:35

And so, for example, the Restorative Economies Fund—we don't just look at structuring a non-extractive investment and moving money to those projects. If the project is interested in being in deep relationship with us, we will take a look at their business plan and give them feedback, if that would be helpful. We will take a look at their fundraising strategy and provide coaching, if that is something that they are interested in. 

And so we see ourselves not just as figures that are only moving resources, but those that now sit at an intersection of having direct experience in the work, and also the ability and the authority to move resources to support the gaps that we know need to be filled and really creating the systems change work that so many of our grantees are calling for.

00:09:20

And so for me, Kataly continues to be one of the most transformative organizations that I've ever worked at, in that the individuals who make up our team are deeply committed to doing the work. And every day are willing to engage in the principled struggle of how do we both navigate the contradictions of philanthropy as a foundation that benefits from capitalism while knowing that we're trying to upend capitalism, right? So every day, having a team that is willing to lean in and asking the hard questions that wants to do the work and figuring out how we get closer to the type of just and equitable economy we know we need going forward. 

00:10:02

So all those reasons, and many more, are why after many years I decided to close down my consulting practice and really focus in on the work of Kataly. And I would be remiss if I didn't add that our grantees—our borrowers, the projects we get to work with—are some of the most inspiring and committed, dedicated community leaders across the country. And so those projects—in a time of a pandemic and a time of democracy being under attack—being able to turn to people who are working side-by-side with their neighbors are part of what keeps me excited, and gives me hope.

00:10:40

And so, yeah, all those reasons and more—Kataly til I die. Well not til I die. That was dramatic, but you know what I mean.

00:10:47

>> Ryan Honeyman

The listeners can't see the Kataly tat on your neck [laughs]

[Nwamaka laughs]

00:10:52

>> Nwamaka Agbo

Right above my eyebrow. Hey there's an idea. Don't put it past me.

00:10:56

>> Ryan Honeyman

I'm curious what stood out to you—you know, I feel like for me, I'm always like, what is it like in leading a foundation? What surprised you in the last couple years that you've been CEO? Like, what really stood out to you?

00:11:09

>> Nwamaka Agbo

I think the headlines of what has stood out to me in leading Kataly is so much of what I was trying to unearth with my consulting work and working on Restorative Economics is that we ultimately don't know what it means to lead—what it means to have to make hard decisions until we are the ones that have actually put ourselves in those situations where we have to make those decisions. And we have to be willing to be responsible and accountable for the decisions that we make, and hold both the pros and also the consequences of that. 

And so for me, after having talked about the work for so long, and having supported projects and implementing their projects, to now be in a position where, you know, I have to make decisions both within the Restorative Economies Fund’s team—with my colleagues—but also for the foundation as a whole. That always having to keep in mind what does the entire organization need in order to meet our commitments to our grantees and to our community. 

00:12:14

So I think really holding the responsibility of leadership is deeply humbling and has taught me a lot about how to be willing to be responsible for the ways that I have impacted others, right. So I think that's one piece. I think another piece that I've really learned over the last… I think I was hired in August 2020… is, you know, this trust-based philanthropy piece that so many organizations have really helped to lift up and pilot.

00:12:44

For us, trust-based philanthropy actually deeply means relationship-based philanthropy. And so when we think of relationships, for us it's both about trusting the needs of our grantees when they tell us what they need, and then showing up and supporting them in those ways. And relationship-based philanthropy also means our grantees trusting us. And sometimes this can look like calling me into a conversation when they have some feedback, or they have concerns about something. And so understanding that trust-based philanthropy can be most successful when the relationship goes both ways. 

00:13:27

And that is how we actually start to lean on relationships that transform how we engage as institutions but also how we engage as just people out in the world, in the field. And so I think unpacking that has been really helpful for our team. We all know what it looks like to maintain a relationship with a friend or a loved one. It means you check in on them. It means you ask them what they need. It means you hold space and listen when they need you to stop talking. And so really leaning into what it means to be in authentic and sincere relationship with our fellow grantees and our borrowers.

00:14:01

The other piece that comes up out of trust-based philanthropy is oftentimes less reporting and no documentation. And so this is something that we've really tried to lean into at Kataly—the ability to move resources to grantees both with a level of ease, so less reporting requirements, but also with a level of speed as well. Sometimes these need to be rapid response grants, because we have people that are experiencing crises or are under threat. And so really understanding that this piece around less documentation. It's important for it to be right-sized both to the needs of the grantees. 

00:14:41

And what I'm also sitting with is—there is a level of documentation that we're still unpacking as a foundation that allows us to track our impact, right? Because at the end of the day, when we spend down, we do want to be able to look and assess: Did we meet our mission? Did we accomplish what we set out to do? And so the data, the documentation—whether that is a voice memo, whether that's a video, whether that's a report, whether it's qualitative or quantitative—allows us to go back and do that assessment. 

00:15:12

So we haven't fully landed on what that reporting or documentation looks like, and it might not even be reported from the grantee side. It might be more reporting that we hold internally, but really trying to understand how will we look back on what we've accomplished over the life of the foundation and whether we were successful in doing our work. 

00:15:32

And then the last piece I've had in terms of what I've learned is that philanthropy as a sector—we all know, you know, shouldn't exist. Or I mean, I said we all know—some of us may know—[that we] shouldn't exist, right? If wealthy people—if we had a tax structure that was set up for wealthy people—to pay their fair shares in taxes, then, you know, philanthropy or foundations wouldn't be a thing where people are then giving philanthropic grants for tax credits. 

00:15:58

And that being said, what I've also learned is that the tools of philanthropy are not inherently bad or evil. It's how we use them. It's kind of like artificial intelligence, right? A lot of the research has shown that the people that design the AI systems are putting their implicit bias into how those AI systems work. Similarly, as we look at the donor-advised fund (DAF) structures, or we look at other tools of philanthropy, the DAF structure itself is not inherently bad. The DAF structure, if it is designed to be a haven—to hold money, and not move it to communities—now, that is bad. And so we see organizations like Possibility Labs that have started to develop a set of philanthropic services designed to really incentivize donors to flow their money out through their DAFs, and not hold on to them. 

00:16:48

What we've also seen at Kataly is that having a donor-advised fund structure—and being able to partner with organizations like ImpactAssets, like Possibility Labs—it does allow us that level of ease and speed, to move money quickly and efficiently to grantees. And so the DAFs themselves aren't bad. How we use them, how we engage them is something that we should always have a critical eye towards. 

00:17:13

And so all that to say: I think those are some of the pieces that I'm sitting and learning about in my role, right? Like how to really understand and talk about relationship-based philanthropy, understanding what is the right level of documentation that is helpful but not hurtful, you know. And then what are the tools of philanthropy, and how do we engage them particularly in this sociopolitical moment to ensure that those that are most directly impacted have the resources that they need on the ground in the forms that they need it. So yeah, I think that's enough rambling for me.

00:17:43

>> Ryan Honeyman

No, that's fantastic. I just imagine that for me, I've often felt like it's easier for me to point out to say to wealthy folks or foundations—like, this is what you're doing wrong, and then to go in what you're experiencing and lead it from that side, and say here's so much more nuance to that conversation. 

What you're saying just resonates with me—all those learnings. I'm curious—let's maybe dip into some of the grantees. Who are you really excited about? I mean, everyone that you've donated or granted to is probably really cool [laughs], but who stands out to you as some of the interesting projects folks might want to know about?

00:18:17

>> Nwamaka Agbo

Yeah, you know, I would just want to say, Ryan, this feels like a trick question. It feels like asking a cousin to name who's their favorite cousin, you know, out there. So I just want to offer that we love all of our grantees. Please go to our website—katalyfoundation.org—we have a list of our grantees that we update regularly, so get to know all of them. 

00:18:37

But I would say that, you know, in asking this question, there's a lot of great work that stands out to me when I think about the work of our Mindfulness and Healing Justice Program area, right. Our Mindfulness and Healing Justice Program area is designed to support Black and brown communities and having access to the mindfulness and contemplative practices as well as supporting social movements and being able to integrate healing justice modalities into their organizing and policy advocacy strategies, right? 

00:19:06

And so, this program area allows us to identify the need of spiritual transformation, and individual and collective care, and how we are trying to break down systems that hurt and harm Black and brown communities and build something anew. And so Prentis Hemphill's work with the Embodiment Institute is some of the most deeply moving work that I've been able to see and experience, particularly as a Black female organizer, right? Being able to be in a healing space that reflects the needs and experience of Black communities, of communities of color. That allows me to have permission and taking time to really tend to my inner well-being. And that is always trying to remind me and others that engage in the Embodiment Institute that we can't just get stuck on our individual “I” need, right? That we always need to really be able to come back to what is the collective care and the community care and how do we show up in relationship to others, right? And so always challenging the ways we can get stuck in our own individualism and being able to come outside of ourselves and tend to others. 

00:20:20

Similarly, the work of Black Organizers for Leadership and Dignity (BOLD)—Denise Perry started BOLD many many years ago, and it continues to be a place where Black organizers are able to come together. Prior to the pandemic, we would come together on the land. But also figure out what are the practices that help to ground us as we're seeking to transform systems, right? The practices that we take on together as a community, the practices that we take on individually. 

00:20:48

And then our Mindfulness and Healing Justice team has also done an excellent job of supporting projects like Gathering Roots out of Seattle [now Sacred Lands Collective] that is looking at creating a dedicated healing space, as well, for people to come and gather together on the land. And so being able to have a program where we recognize the need to resource Black and brown teacher-practitioners, right? The need to really support social movements in coming together and figuring out what it means to collectively heal together. And, then also being able to ensure that there is safe and sacred space for those gatherings and this work to happen. 

00:21:24

We also have our Environmental Justice Resourcing Collective—our EJRC—was designed, is designed, to be directly governed by nine women of color environmental justice leaders from across the country. This is one of the ways that we've also looked to kind of deepen our commitment to democratic governance and decentering ourselves as foundation leadership making grant decisions. And so this group came together last year. They identified a slate of 78 grantees to commit over $30 million to over the course of five years. And so these grantees—being able to know that four, three, two years from now—that they can count on general operating support from the Kataly Foundation, that was facilitated by their own community leaders, I think, is deeply healing.

00:21:16

One of the—I forget which grantee it was, or who named it, but—one of the things that always moves me when I think about why general operating support grants are so important… this community leader had shared, “It is essential for us to be able to imagine that we exist in the future.” And so when we make that three-, five-, seven-year grant, it means that we are naming and claiming that we want these communities to exist into the future. 

00:22:42

And so, that's just my preamble on the structure of the EJRC, let alone the grantees. In the grantee docket, we support a mix of grassroots organizations, so when I think about the work of Indigenous communities fighting for liberation in Hawai’i. Hawai’i Unity and Liberation (HULI) is an organization that the EJRC has committed to supporting.

00:23:04

We also have the Gulf Coast Center for Law and Policy (GCCLP)—Colette Pichon, who is also one of the EJRC leaders. So we know that area of the country, how deeply impacted it is by climate change, and so being able to support the ongoing organizing and policy advocacy work that happens at the center. 

00:23:23

I also then think of national formations like the Climate Justice Alliance that are also supporting how we think about addressing climate chaos—that we're Just Transition-ing. So those are some of the grantees that I'm so excited about with the Environmental Justice Resourcing Collective. 

00:23:38

And then lastly, we have our Restorative Economies Fund. And I realized I actually didn't talk about the Restorative Economies Fund much, you know, but the gist of it is that yes, it's based off of the Restorative Economics framework, right—the theory of change being that we want to support community-owned and community-governed projects that are rooted in building the political and economic and cultural power of communities of color. 

00:24:02

And so as a fund, we are structured to be what's called an integrated capital fund. So we move grants across the capital spectrum, or we move resources across the capital spectrum. So from grants to non-extractive investments. And so being able to have an investment mechanism means that we're able to also support those community wealth-building projects that are seeking to be financially sustainable. 

00:24:26

It allows us to have an entry point where we break out of the nonprofit industrial complex where so many organizations are relying on philanthropy and foundations for money, but we're able to really tap into resourcing projects and providing that catalytic subordinated capital where then other financial institutions would look at these projects and assess them as being investment ready. 

00:24:52

So a project that we worked with for a good bit and a project that you know that we recently closed a loan on last year is the East Bay Permanent Real Estate Cooperative. And this is a project to really create a cooperative real estate community that helps to really take land out of the speculative market and ensure that the members not only get to live and work in the space, but also are part of the governing body. And so the East Bay Permanent Real Estate Cooperative recently acquired Esther's Orbit Room along the 7th Street Corridor in West Oakland. It is a historically Black neighborhood, a historical building, and the ability to really think about community members as community developers that are acquiring and redeveloping a space and making it beautiful in their own image to meet their needs is deeply exciting. 

00:25:43

And so the ability that we've been able to move pre-development startup grants to them as they were building out their internal capacity, as they were due diligence-ing the property, and then being able to move a long-term patient capital loan for them to then purchase the building is part of the type of economic development that we want to be able to incite. Not only in Oakland, but in other projects that we've been honored to support. 

00:26:06

So I also think of Nikishka Iyengar’s work with The Guild out in Atlanta. We're really excited about Kensington Corridor Trust and Adriana [Abizadeh-Barbour]'s work to really start to build up on that community's capacity for equitable economic development. And so really showing folks the issue is not that our communities do not want development, it's that we want to ensure that we are doing development that reflects our needs and interests. We want to do development that treats us with dignity, and we want to do development in a way that we are not siloing ourselves into individuals that feel like we have to fight for our own riches but we're actually collectivizing our political power, our economic power, and celebrating our culture in the way that we are really trying to build up our communities and provide a strong social safety net. 

00:26:53

And so with the Restorative Economies Fund, we are so excited to be able to support equitable economic development projects that are market rate development projects like the historical project I mentioned earlier. Community-governed loan funds like Seed Commons that we've talked about on this podcast before, the REAL People's Fund, and so many others. 

00:27:14

And then also land and housing stabilization initiatives—from those community land trust projects like the Oakland Community Land Trust, Richmond LAND—and then wanting to be able to support more and more built environment infrastructure projects. So projects like the People’s Solar Energy Fund (PSEF) where we see communities really taking control over their grid, whether it's their energy grid, whether it's their internet infrastructure grid, or their stormwater management systems—to really ensure that we are localizing control and ownership of the things that connect a people in a place. And how do we structure that so that when crises like climate change, or like a hurricane or tornado comes, we not only own and manage those systems but then we have the knowledge and expertise on how to take care of them. 

00:27:58

And, so yeah, you know you wanted it—I’m sorry I couldn't make it any shorter than that. And you asked me to brag on our folks, and that's just like the top layer of all the richness that's in our portfolio of grantees and borrowers.

00:28:11

>> Ryan Honeyman

It's fantastic. I mean, just looking through this list I was like these are—every organization is doing such incredible work. I imagine you must feel both incredible excitement because a lot of the projects that you've known about, going back to, you know… we used to go to the Bali conferences and now you're in a position to help and support. And then it must also feel hard because there's so much more need at the same time. It's not enough, really. How do you balance that tension? Or just that reality?

00:28:48

>> Nwamaka Agbo

I guess, yeah. I mean, I think that comes back to the leadership piece that I was naming, right?

The… being able to sit with the responsibility and the weight of our decisions. And what I have found that has allowed me to navigate, sometimes, when we have to say a no or decline is to be really transparent about why. And so one of the things that we're observing—at least on the Restorative Economies Fund side—is that we were so excited to be able to resource so many of those projects. That we were celebrating at Bali, right? And so being able to resource them early, often, and aggressively that now they've been able to grow, stabilize, and engage in supporting more communities and also being able to tap into other funders. 

00:29:32

Once these projects also reach a scale, we think we have the opportunity to continue to seed and resource the grassroots projects to really grow the field in the base. And so we're constantly trying to work through where and how we continue to resource projects over a long term. Once they've reached a level of sustainability, what does it mean for us to help them kind of transition on to—sometimes—other funders? But ideally, this is at the point where their business model is actually functioning, and they're financially sustainable, which then means that we can turn and look to some of those other projects that are young in their organizing stages that still kind of need some help in figuring out how they build out their team, how they get their first set of grants, and resourcing them.

00:30:18

The flexibility that we have with the type of funders that we are means that we feel a deep responsibility to really support those projects that otherwise would not have the opportunity to dream, let alone thrive, under our current economic system. And so that's part of what we continue to sit with—who else do we need to resource and build out so that there's not just one of us, or two of us, or five of us, but that there's so many different seeds across the country? And ideally around the world where these projects are not just the… you know, philanthropy has this habit of identifying a darling, right? A darling that will just continue to lift up and celebrate over and over again. I think we should all be darlings, and I think there's a lot of great projects and ideas out there. We want to figure out how to support some in standing up—let them fly on their own, and then find the next set of projects that we want to build up and resource. So that's the process that we're in as a spend-out foundation. 

00:31:21

>> Ryan Honeyman

You know, one of the things you've mentioned to me over the years is—we need to make sure we're not just redistributing wealth, but redistributing power. How are you sort of looking at that in your work and your granting work and other work?

00:31:33

>> Nwamaka Agbo

Good question, Ryan. So, for our team—both our Restorative Economies Fund, our Environmental Justice Resourcing Collective, and in our Mindfulness and Healing Justice teams, again, right—we are teams that come out of an experience of doing the work on the ground. So a lot of our relationships, knowledge, and expertise informs how we do our grant-making, and what we always try to do is… as grantees are reaching out and making requests and decisions—going out and asking other grantees in the field what they know about the projects. Being able to ask other grantees who else should we fund, right? Who else do you think should be a part of our docket? And so that's how we are seeking to kind of collectivize and broaden our grantee pool and base and also our decision-making.

00:32:20

We have some things on the horizon for the Restorative Economies Fund that I'm not at liberty to share just yet, but always really trying to keep an eye towards how we broaden and grow the table of decision makers, so we're getting the best and the brightest minds on a body of work. 

00:32:38

One of the things I do want to name about collective decision-making is that I want to be clear that collective decision making still requires us to make decisions, right? And so, sometimes, what I've observed is that we may want to hide behind a collective decision-making process because it can be really scary and hard to have to be responsible for the decisions that we make. And so how do we ensure that when we're actually setting up governing bodies, that it is with the intention that we are actually inviting everybody's voice into the room—that we are inviting everybody to kind of weigh in on this critical decision, and that we are all holding the responsibility together of a decision and not hanging it on all one person. That's something that we continue to sit with.

00:33:24

The last thing I would say structurally on how we make our decisions as a foundation as well is  that our grant-making decisions rest with our program leads. And so in my role, I basically support the programs and affirming how their grantee decisions and recommendations fit into their overall grant making strategy, but I'm not the decision maker. And so I'm really here to support our program teams in growing their leadership, and growing their relationship with their grantees, and affirming their decisions—particularly ensuring that their decisions then meet the mission of the foundation to redistribute resources to support the political, economic, and cultural leadership of Black and brown communities. I say that a lot of times. I just like saying it over and over again. So you know, you'll hear it a couple more times before we close.

00:34:11

>> Ryan Honeyman

wow I don't know if I've ever heard of the program leads making the full decision themselves. Is that common, or is that very uncommon?

00:34:20

>> Nwamaka Agbo

I would say that's not traditional in philanthropy. Typically in philanthropy, the governing board will approve a final grant-making docket that the program leads prepare and present to them. And, we do see a move in philanthropy in experimenting with more participatory grant-making structures. So I do think there are others in philanthropy that are trying to figure out what this looks like in practice, and how to ensure that we're implementing it so that it's a good use of the time of the grantees and the other individuals that are invited to kind of weigh in on those decisions. So, really excited to see how the field continues to grow in that way.

00:34:59

>> Ryan Honeyman

I'm gonna throw somewhat of a tough one at you here. What is a strongly held belief that you held for a long time that's changed in the last few years?

00:35:09

>> Nwamaka Agbo

That is a tough one. I don't know that it's changed as much as it's been updated is… now in this position—I came from an organizing strategy… maybe it wasn't that sophisticated at the time, where so much of what, you know, I'd say to philanthropy or engage with some of my clients is… just move the money. 

00:35:30

You know, I think we've heard this like before: “move the money.”  It’s a talking point, it's a hashtag. What I've learned now in this role is that moving the money so that it has the desired impact requires a level of research, planning, and intentionality—right? It requires a level of tools and internal systems within an institution to ensure that the resources make the desired impact, and so that takes time.

00:35:55

And so, I would say that the updated thinking is: yes, move the money, and move it with intention and commitment and values and rigor and discipline. And then following the demands and the needs of those that are most directly impacted and the community leaders that are part of social movement that we know we need in this moment. 

00:36:15

>> Ryan Honeyman

So it's not literally like, get out your checkbooks, like, i'll move the money. It's like, I love this idea. It's got to be intentional with systems and processes.

00:36:23

>> Nwamaka Agbo

Yeah, if our commitment is to create equity and liberation and justice—right? It requires us to think critically about how we move those resources, who we move them to, how we hold ourselves accountable to make sure that they're moving to the right places. And so, we could just put money on the side of the street and people would be richer, and people would go about their day. But, would it really support communities in experimenting with the types of projects that they know are needed to transform systems? You know, I think that's up for debate. So, yeah. So to move money with intention.

00:39:59

>> Ryan Honeyman

And what do you need right now? And how can listeners help you grow this next economy?

00:37:06

>> Nwamaka Agbo

Thank you, Ryan, for asking me what I need. That’s very kind of you. I don't know—it's not so much of what I need, but what I believe is needed in this moment and what I've shared with others is that we are living in a moment where we need the doers and the builders. We need more of those people who want to be a part of the technical and the tedious work of developing business models, of researching market studies, of working on spreadsheets, engaging with lawyers and accountants, and negotiating with realtors and investors so that we can actually build the projects that we need. 

00:37:51

I believe that, and so much of my organizing work and background was steeped in, and continues to be, developing an assessment around the powers that we need to push back on, the projects and policies that don't meet the needs and interests of our communities, right. So much of the work is about pushing back on the forces that seek to hurt in our process. 

00:38:12

And, I also believe that what we need in this moment is also building out the models, the systems, the projects, the infrastructure, the community capacity, the leadership that we know we want and need for that more just and equitable community / system / society that we're playing for in the future.

00:38:32

The reason I think this is important is that for so much of the ways that I've thought of humanity—and I've thought about what does it take for us to treat everybody with dignity and kindness—has been that if we are able to face a common threat together, then we will collectivize ourselves as humanities and rise up to meet that common threat. And in the face of the existential crisis of climate change; in the face of a pandemic that has now turned endemic—I haven't actually seen the building of the collective “we” that I think many of us know we need to save ourselves, and save humanity, and save the world going forward. 

00:39:14

And that's largely because leadership of nation states have not shown up to rise to the occasion to address that common threat and build the collective “we.” So then it leads me to assume that that collective “we,” that building, that place where we turn to see our dignity and humanity reflected in our neighbors—will only come from the grassroots communities. It will only come from those of us on the ground, those of us that are most impacted. And by being most impacted, we have no other choice but to turn to each other and build the type of society that we've been longing for.

00:39:52

So I come back to my previous comment. What I need—what we need—is people who are willing to do the work, and are willing to do the building on the ground, so that we have something to transition into. We have something to long for, to call home, to yearn for into the future.

00:40:11

>> Ryan Honeyman

Wow. I was about to stand up and start clapping [laughs]. That I was dope 

00:40:15

>> Nwamaka Agbo

[Laughs] Don't do that. Yeah, it's bad for the microphone.

00:40:18

>> Ryan Honeyman

Where can folks learn more about your work? Website? Social media? I don't know if Kataly’s on Instagram or anything like that [laughs]. 

00:40:27

>> Nwamaka Agbo

Yeah, so I am social media challenged. But we have an amazing communications director that keeps us up and running. And so please do check out our foundation website Kataly k-a-t-a-l-y foundation dot o-r-g. 

00:40:42

And we are also on Twitter. There's some abbreviation of our handle and then I keep my personal website updated here and there. It's just my name nwamakaagbo.com. I'm also on Twitter as @AmakaAgbo. And I'm not really good with the social media things, but when you go to Kataly Foundation you'll see our Medium page follow our Medium page where our team puts together some excellent articles as well as some other articles, op-eds, webinar recordings that we've done to really share more about our work with people. So yeah, it's all there on the interwebs.

00:41:15

>> Ryan Honeyman

Well thank you so much, Nwamaka. I would like to get you on more than once every four years so maybe… 

00:41:22

>> Nwamaka Agbo

You want to catch me before the next wrinkle comes. That’s fair.

00:41:24

>> Ryan Honeyman

All right thanks so much.

00:41:27

>> Nwamaka Agbo

Thank you. Thanks for having me, Ryan.

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