Brown Rice Hour Episode 9 – Restorative Economics with Nwamaka Agbo

Written By Nwamaka Agbo

FROM: BROWN RICE HOUR PODCAST

In this episode of Brown Rice Hour, host Konda Mason sits down with Nwamaka Agbo, CEO of the Kataly Foundation and architect of Restorative Economics, to explore how we can dismantle extractive capitalism and build liberated futures. Drawing from her background in community organizing and her critique of traditional philanthropy, Agbo outlines a framework that centers repair, collective ownership, and deep democracy for Black, Brown, Indigenous, and immigrant communities. Together, they examine the history of wealth preservation in philanthropy, the necessity of shifting from charity to solidarity, and the urgent work of redistributing power back to those most impacted by systemic harm.

 

Key Takeaways

  • Restorative Economics as Repair Before Innovation: Nwamaka defines Restorative Economics as a framework rooted in restorative justice and reparations, insisting that we must first acknowledge and repair the historical harms inflicted on marginalized communities before designing new economic systems. Without this foundational step, new initiatives risk replicating the same exclusionary dynamics of the old economy.

  • Critique of Traditional Philanthropy: The conversation highlights how modern philanthropy originated as a mechanism for private wealth preservation and tax avoidance, allowing donors to retain control over resources rather than contributing to a robust public social safety net. Agbo notes that many foundations still invest in industries that contradict their stated missions, such as profiting from incarceration while funding criminal justice reform.

  • Collective Ownership Over Individual Entrepreneurship: A core tenet of Restorative Economics is the shift from glorifying individual entrepreneurs to fostering community-owned and governed assets, such as land trusts and cooperative loan funds. This approach ensures that financial returns and decision-making power remain within the community, practicing "deep democracy" and preventing external investors from extracting value from local development.

  • From Charity to Solidarity: Nwamaka emphasizes the need to move beyond transactional charity toward genuine solidarity, where funders commit resources upfront rather than seeking endless consultations or pilot programs. She advocates for a model where wealthy institutions support community-led visions with the intensity and scale necessary for true liberation, echoing the sentiment from Vini Bhansali (Solidaire Network) to "resource us like you want us to win."

  • Community Resilience and Leadership: Despite systemic barriers, Agbo observes that communities are already innovating and building resilient economic structures out of necessity. The role of allies and funders is not to dictate solutions but to catch up to and resource these existing efforts, recognizing that Black women and other marginalized leaders are already charting the path toward a more just and equitable world.

Full Transcript

Chapter 1: Restorative Economics

[Music]

[Podcast Intro]

00:00:42

>> Konda Mason

I am really, really happy to be here this evening with a dear, dear person and friend and colleague, Nwamaka Agbo. And so I want to welcome people to the Brown Rice Hour where we have conversations at the intersection of land, race, money, culture, and spirit. And my guest this evening Nwamaka Agbo describes her work as a Restorative Economics practitioner, committed to building liberated futures, and so I want to welcome you, Nwamaka, to my podcast. I am so grateful you are here.

00:01:25

>> Nwamaka Agbo

Aw, well thanks for having me, Konda, I'm really looking forward to this conversation. As you know, you have been one of the people that's accompanied me and really set me on the path early on. We met when I was in my—I was a young—I was a 20-something. So I'm I'm looking forward to having this conversation.

00:01:46

>> Konda Mason

 Yeah yeah, it's so cool. It's so wonderful to see you and to have watched you over the years. And um, oh man, I feel so proud. I wanted to start with opening up with this little sacred space first. And you know, I just like to honor the ancestors whose shoulders upon which we all stand. And I'm so aware right now, I don't know about you, but it feels like in this intense time on the planet that we're experiencing. It's like the ancestors are not even whispering anymore. They're like yelling in our ears, really guiding so much, and I know I feel it so deeply. And I just always, always honor their presence, you know. And knowing that we could not be doing this without the kind of resilience and strength and love that they brought and have really instilled in all of us.

So I love to give big honoring, and also honoring the land where I am right now. The unceded territory of the Choctaw people who were the original people here, which is now called Louisiana. And so I'm wondering if you can tell us where, what land you're on right now.

00:03:15

>> Nwamaka Agbo

Yeah, I am in unceded Ohlone territory in Northern California in the Bay Area, and yeah, I have the the honor of calling East Oakland, deep East Oakland my home.

00:03:30

>> Konda Mason

Yeah, oh I love East Oakland. I have a home there myself, but I'm here in Louisiana right now, and so that's wonderful. So thank you for that, and for us thinking about the ancestors and also the future generations that are really counting on us, that for whose ancestors we will be. May we do the work that we're here to do with the kind of heart and love that has been instilled in us. May we not forget the love. You know, it's like we're so moving forward—so many issues, so many things that need to move forward, and we're driven—I know I am, and so many people that I know are—so driven, and I just want to always anchor in love because we do this work because we love something so much, and it's this planet. And there's this earth and each other and so I just like to always bring that into the middle of the conversation before we even start.

00:04:33

So you know Nwamka, I always start—well let me give a little bit of background to folks. Let me just read your bio right now if you don't mind. I love this. So Nwamaka is the CEO of the Kataly Foundation and the Managing Director of the Restorative Economies Fund. In her roles, she collaborates with the Kataly team to lead the foundation's day-to-day operations while holding the community-centered strategy and vision for the fund. Such a beautiful vision for this fund. We'll talk about it. With a background in community organizing, electoral campaigns, policy and advocacy work on racial social and environmental justice issues, Nwamaka is deeply committed to supporting projects that build resilient, healthy, and self-determined communities rooted in shared prosperity. 

00:05:33

Prior to joining the Kataly team, Nwamaka built an independent consulting practice guided by her framework on Restorative Economics, which we will also be speaking of. As a consultant, she provided technical assistance and strategic guidance to community-owned and -governed community wealth-building initiatives like Restore Oakland which is a wonderful initiative, Black Land and Power, and others. 

00:06:03

Nwamaka’s work with these community-driven projects led her to providing trainings and advisory services to donors, foundations, and impact investment firms including institutions like the San Francisco Foundation and RSF Social Finance. Nwamaka has served as a fellow for the Center for Economic Democracy and for Movement Strategy Center. She proudly serves on the board of Thousand Currents, which we love, Restore Oakland, and Resource Generation. 

00:06:35

She graduated from UC Davis with a bachelor's degree in Sociology and African American Studies and holds a Master's of Public Administration specializing in Financial Management from San Francisco State University. And it sounds like you have a certain kind of love for a little bit of bourbon.

00:06:57

>> Nwamaka Agbo

Girl, all the bourbons. All the bourbons. Uncle Nearest has been my latest jam.

00:07:03

>> Konda Mason

What's it called, Uncle who?

00:07:06

>> Nwamaka Agbo

Uncle Nearest. Yes it's a Black female-owned bourbon distillery. I'll tell you the story afterwards.

00:07:12

>> Konda Mason

Yeah, wow, yeah, right on. Yeah I'm lame when it comes to that kind of stuff. I am so happy to hear you. I think about—when I was reading the bio about you going back to school and and getting that master’s, and that time when you were making that decision… going from community organizing and going to… what was that at that time that was driving you to do that?

00:07:39

>> Nwamaka Agbo

Yeah, um, that was… I struggled with that moment. I went back to school because, you know, that was coming right off of the Great Recession, and so that was coming off of 2012. It was when I was in a leadership position at the Ella Baker Center for Human Rights and you know, so many organizations including ours—we were really struggling to fundraise from foundations because foundations had been impacted by the Great Recession, so their endowments had taken a hit. And because their endowments took a hit, they weren't giving out as much in their five percent grantmaking. So this meant that social movements that heavily relied on the 501c3 non-profit structure as the backbone / industry by which they do their organizing work were hit really hard. 

00:08:32

And I recognize that that was a moment where I understood a lot about campaigning strategy, and I had a lot of critiques of the economy, but I myself didn't fundamentally understand what was happening in the broader economy when it tipped off in 2007 2008, and what it would therefore mean for organizations like ours later down the road that relied on the stock market performing because that's how foundations typically hold their assets, and that is what then makes it possible for them to then do the five percent grantmaking.

00:09:06

So all of that to say it was an eye-opening moment for me where I was like, I actually need to go back to school. I need to fundamentally understand how the economy works. I need to understand how finance works and I need to understand what are the mechanisms and the ways that we create self-determination and shared prosperity for folks outside of the 501c3 nonprofit structure. I think that there is and continues to be a need for nonprofit organizations and I think if we observe some of the ways in which the right has been able to continue to hurt and harm Black and brown communities, it's because they're not only using 501c3s—they're also using 501c4 electoral organizations. They're using PACs. They're using LLCs, LLPs, all the things, which means that they're having access to different forms of capital as well. And so, wanting to require myself to have a level of discipline—to have a more holistic approach around what was actually needed to help support communities that were on the front lines of fighting for social justice. 

00:10:12

>> Konda Mason

So going back, I mean didn't you learn traditional economics? And how did that impact you, because I don't know the program, but I'm assuming that you were learning traditional economics, and were you able to immediately see through what the problem is? Or what was that transition like?

00:10:37

>> Nwamaka Agbo

One of the great things about going back to graduate school after having worked for a number of years is that I wasn't necessarily going back to graduate school to learn a lot of new information. I was going back to school to understand the frameworks or the ways in which my organizing and my political activism career—how I could have some frameworks and set some context to understand what was happening there. 

00:11:04

A story that I often share is: the opening pages of my graduate school micro / macro economics book framed the study of economics as one in which we are studying to determine who gets to decide who eats caviar and who eats potatoes. Who is taking the public transit and who's driving a corvette. And so for me, from the very beginning it was very clear that this world view was fundamentally rooted in a narrative of scarcity, of competition, of have and have nots. 

00:11:38

I was able to then take the information that I was receiving and put it in the context of what does that mean for the world that I want to create that's rooted in abundance, justice, equity, and liberation? And so always having to translate understanding supply and demand, and GDP, and elasticity to what does it actually mean as we're moving towards liberation? Around how we move resources? Within and between communities.

00:12:08

>> Konda Mason

Yeah, boy…  I love what you're saying, and that gap there between all that you're you're pointing to when you look at the disparities and you really understand that what economics—the scarcity platform—basically and the platform of… I mean, even when you look at interest, and you think about how interest works right? It's like, if you give me a dollar and I owe you back a dollar, 10. Where does that 10 cents come from, right? Who has suffered for that 10 cents that I give you back and it's like just basics that I also started thinking about. So I love what you're pointing to. There's so much that I wanna find out and I want you to explain to folks Restorative Economics. 

00:13:08

What is that? You have coined the term, and I feel it just saying the words, and just reading the words. I feel it inside myself but I'd love for you to explain it. What is Restorative Economics? 

00:13:25

>> Nwamaka Agbo

Yeah. So, to set up Restorative Economics and how I came to that body of work, I think part of what I want to tease out about what you just lifted up around this story of interest, and how that one dollar generated an additional 10 cents, is that one of the things we've seen most recently is the GameStop phenomenon on Wall Street, and how that IPO has risen in value. 

Because we've seen how low net worth holders have kind of invested and helped to kind of increase the stock and I think one of the popular narratives coming out of it is that people are like—oh, the economy is just made up. And it's like yes, this is what we've been saying. That we actually get to have choice around how we move resources, around how we take care of certain communities. 

00:14:20

For so long, I thought that capital finance—the economy—was fixed, right? That there were rigid structures, and I had to go in there and study it. And what I came to understand is, well, these are all man-made. The rules bend for certain people and they harden for others. And so knowing that then, I felt empowered. I'm like—oh, we could actually have a different worldview under which we come to understand the economy. 

And one of the things I always feel important to lift up—that Movement Generation really taught me or reminded me of—is that the Greek meaning of the word “economy” is the “management of home.” 

00:15:02

And so when I think about “economy” in that context, I'm not thinking about the elasticity and the interest rate like you lifted up. I'm thinking about my family, my friends, my culture and traditions. All the ways that I create safe and sacred space within my home. And so knowing that, we have the opportunity—and dare I say the responsibility—to shift the narrative and the stories around “economy.” Economy being the expansive way we come to understand the management of our collective home—planet Earth—and all the resources and goodness within it. I felt empowered to look at creating a framework that acted as my own personal guidelines for how I would go about doing my consulting work.

00:15:48

And so Restorative Economics is something that was directly informed by coming off of the Great Recession, going back to graduate school, working in neighborhood scale urban redevelopment projects with organizations like EcoDistricts. And so, it is fundamentally rooted in the frameworks of Restorative Justice, and reparations. And Restorative Economics is and forces us into an intentional transition out of an extractive and exploitative capitalist economy and towards something that's more just.

00:16:23

One of the reasons it felt really important for me to carve out a space where we're intentional about the type of transition you want to have happen is that one, what I observed is that—I've started to see the popularization of the sharing economy through platforms like AirBnB and Uber, is that it was those individuals that had the risk tolerance, the flexible capital, and the leisure time to go and create these new platforms, and these new ways of thinking about sharing your car or sharing your home. And those individuals that happen to be whiter and wealthier because they already had disposable income. 

And so for me, someone who comes out of a social, racial, economic justice background wanted to ensure that we were looking at a transition towards a more just economy that was deeply focused on restoring, reinvesting in those communities that have been most extracted from, exploited, locked out, and left behind. And those are Black, brown, Indigenous, immigrant, trans, migrant communities.

00:17:29

So Restorative Economics, once again, being a call for first acknowledging the hurt and harm that has been done to these communities through intentional policies and practices, and careless activities—both of individuals and government, right—so, in order to restore and heal, you have to first acknowledge the harm that was done and then you have to engage in a commitment towards reconciliation, repair. So repairing—making whole those communities that have been hurt and harmed and then we can start to have a conversation once you have healed, once you've been restored. Then you're in a position—you're in a state of power, a state of independence—to engage in a conversation about what this new, just economy should look like going forward.

00:18:14But when we don't actually repair and support those communities, we end up—we have the same people at the table. And we end up unfortunately replicating the same hurt and harms that got us here. So Restorative Economics sits in complement to the Solidarity Economy frameworks we see that women of color have really lifted up in Indigenous communities, in the Global South. It's in complement to the Just Transition framework that came out of the peak oil crisis of the 1970s and workers in that industry. Also informed by the New Economy frameworks that we see come out of academia, particularly on the East Coast.

00:18:57

For me, none of those frameworks except the Solidarity Economy one—because people understand the Global South, but in the Global North, we weren't actually having a conversation about addressing race. We weren't looking at race, class, or gender, and how we were thinking about who should be prioritized for these impact investments, for these social impact bonds. 

And so by creating a framework that requires us to be very intentional about who we're investing in, how we go about investing in them, and what types of projects we're supporting, we get to be very deliberate. And once again we have a responsibility to be deliberate about what we are popularizing, what we are investing in, and what we are growing in the hopes that it is actually in service of that vision of justice and liberation.

00:19:43

And so I support projects that are community-owned and governed. Interested in supporting those projects where groups of people or groups of organizations are coming together to collectively own and manage an asset—an asset being… it could be land. It could be land that's held in a community land trust, in real estate cooperative. It could be market rate development. It could be a community-governed loan fund—a vehicle where communities come together to make decisions about how to reinvest resources in their local businesses and in other efforts. 

But the goal here being around the collective ownership and governance is that we start to actually push back against the model of capitalism that's so much focused on glorifying the wealth and riches of a sole individual entrepreneur, right. And community organizing work, as you know, and cut me off at any time, because I can just keep talking…

00:20:37

>> Konda Mason

I am I'm not going to cut you off at any time. You just keep going please [laughs].

00:20:43

>> Nwamaka Agbo

I think you, as we know, as community organizers—when development or investments happen in our communities—whether it's new market tax credits, opportunity zones, promised neighborhoods—the community is told: oh, you will get x number of jobs that will be created, and maybe it's a living wage, minimum wage job, or you'll get x acreage of green space in your neighborhood. But what's actually—what’s also happening there, in addition to the social benefits that the community is told to look at in your right hand over here—is that in your left hand over here, the investors, the developers are financially profiting.

00:21:17

>> Konda Mason

That's right.

00:21:18

>> Nwamaka Agbo

And they don't live in that community. And so the call for collective ownership requires us to be very intentional about who is owning this asset, therefore who is generating—how are the financial returns being generated, and who is amassing that wealth, and how is that wealth being circulated and held in community collectively together. And the governance piece is also important to the work because we continue to be in a practice of deep democracy. 

00:21:48

You know, I always give credit to the work of Nicole Hannah Jones from the New York Times. 1619 project—both because it was brilliant, and she has this one-liner that just sits with me: “Black people have been the great perfecters of the American democracy.” Right, we continue to push this country to live into its vision and promise of democracy, and so community-owned and governed projects create kind of a small case study—an experiment—for us to actually be in that practice of deep democracy where we have to come together across our multiple owners to understand how will we collectively steward this asset for the benefit, not just of some, but our entire community? How will we navigate conflict in a way that is actually generative, and not punitive? Particularly as we're trying to re-imagine what community looks like without an oppressive state-sanctioned policing force? And so these projects are opportunities for us to be in the active lived experience of building and creating the world that we want to see and be in.

00:22:55

The other reason I think this is important for me—I've worked on policy, electoral campaigns—like, always trying to figure out what are the different ways we create change and build power from Black and brown communities. And I'm super clear that there is no white person that could tell me my experience—the experience of my community—better than my community could. 

And so, while I think it's important to continue to engage in democracy and go out and vote every four years in election, I also think that we need to be in a principled practice of what does it take for us to be the ones that are able to govern in the ways that we are demanding our elected officials? To be the ones that have to wrestle with the hard decisions of how food is distributed? Of how to make sure that we have a public transportation system that's functioning? Of how we create a building that is accessible to all people? And so these projects, once again, allow us to test our understanding, our experience. What is necessary to actually live into this vision for justice and equity? 

00:24:05

And that while we do that, these projects start to create pillars of shared prosperity where we start to have bright spots—whether it's in Oakland with Restore Oakland, whether it's in New Orleans and in the South with Potlikker Capital Fund, whether it's Boston Ujima—where people can start to see oh, there's enough of these pillars across the country and around the world where we recognize and see the way to redefine or recreate that narrative of “economy.” And so that is my work. 

I think that the economic strategy that we are in with our work with the Restorative Economies Fund at the Kataly Foundation is not just economic, but it is political. And it is cultural as you lifted up in your introduction. Because the economic power and the assets then create the platform for us to assert and contest for political power and reinforce the values and the culture that we want to see and live into.

Um, I think I just talked for like 30 minutes, so… [smiles].

00:25:14

>> Konda Mason

Whew [smiles] I thank you, you know, Nwmaka, you just kind of weaved in the entire ecosystem of what it is to be human. What it is to be human on this planet. What is it that, um, how do we create what we know inside ourselves is just. You started out by saying that basically that all these structures—the economy—it looked like it was this solid rock. This thing that was unapproachable. And you realize that it was made up. It was made up. Therefore, it can be unmade up, right? 

00:26:03

Oh and what you are doing—all the work that you're pointing to and everything that you said—is like, it's taking that mentality—a new worldview—getting out of what we've been told is fact. Realizing it is, in fact, fiction. But with real consequences. Real impact. And real consequences, right. Because, it’s real. And, having the power and the vision to just know that this can be done differently. That we can create the world in a full 360 degrees.

00:26:42

You have talked about every sector—about how it's all linked. You've connected all the dots and how underneath it is this financial system that is this racial capitalism that is based on complete extraction. The mythology of meritocracy, right. The mythology that “I deserve this because I have all this wealth and I have all these resources because I worked so hard for it,” you know. And it's through “merit.” And those who don't have it—it's because they just haven't worked that hard enough. They don't have what I have. And we know that that's not true. We know that that is not true. And it's built upon lies. It's built upon lies. 

00:27:29

And what I hear and see you doing—what you have done since the day I met you—is to confront the lies, and to not only do that. Not just look at what's not happening, but turn over here and say “this is what we're building,” and to go about the business of building it. Go about the business of bringing the resources, bringing a new worldview and spreading it with Restorative Economics. With Just Transition. With solidarity philanthropy. And [solidarity] economy. 

All of that is saying there is another way to do this. We have the power to do it. We have the creativity to do it. And it goes again—it boils down to culture. You know, it boils down to culture. And so I'm loving how you have just stitched it all together in such a beautiful way, and the work that you are doing is just phenomenal. Just phenomenal.

Chapter 2: Philanthropic Institutions

00:27:29

>> Konda Mason

I would love for you to talk about philanthropy. And I think that people think that philanthropy is just this wonderful, you know… people are doing this incredible gift to those who have not, and the impacted communities and that we should be grateful. And that it is something that comes from the heart. And I would like for you to just break down, maybe a little bit, about the history of philanthropy, and what it has done. And how it has continued to perpetuate the harm. If you don’t mind [laughs]. 

00:29:11

>> Nwamaka Agbo

[smiles] I don't mind. And, you know, my disclaimer—surprise note to the folks—is that I am in philanthropy. So I offer all of these critiques and reflections as my own way of holding myself, my feet to the fire, and my own level of accountability in my role with Kataly. 

00:29:30

I would start off by saying being in a philanthropic role was never a part of my vision board, my 10-year plan. But here I am. And so I sit in this role with the awareness that philanthropy has been an industry that was created for the private preservation of wealth. 

So. the Carnegie family was behind some of the initial legislation to create philanthropy, and the rationale being that: We as wealthy individuals—like you said, the myth of the meritocracy—we as wealthy individuals have amassed all of this wealth because we work harder, and we are smarter than everybody else. Therefore, rather than paying our fair share in taxes that provide a strong social safety net for all people, we want to create legislation that allows us to instead take a portion of our wealth, our earnings, and create philanthropic institutions that continue to retain the authority and the right to make decisions off of how these philanthropic dollars are then given back to the community in a charitable way.

00:30:45

And oftentimes, you know, there are ways in which people with wealth will use their philanthropic institutions to continue to protect their own political interests. And then end up shaping so many of our institutions. So when we see philanthropies that are advocating for the creation of charter schools, and undermining the public school system, right. When we see people that are advocating for um private health insurance, right, when we understand that social movements are actually calling for universal health care. And so, this is the way that philanthropy continues to retain not just the wealth, but ultimately the political power. 

00:31:31

And the other piece that we know is that philanthropies are only required by law to give five percent of their earnings on an annual basis. 

00:31:41

>> Konda Mason

I don't know that people know that. Can you just explain that a little bit?

00:31:37

>> Nwamaka Agbo

Yes, so any philanthropic institution from year to year is only required to give up to five percent. They can choose to give more. But most just do the minimum. And so what that means is that that 95% may continue to sit in endowments, may be invested in other ways, right. 

00:32:07

You know, recently when I was working at the Ella Baker Center, and we were working to end mass incarceration as the mission of the organization—come to find out, some of our philanthropic institutions didn't realize they were invested in and profiting off of private prisons because of the ways that blended portfolios are set up and designed to obscure the truth around what you're invested in. 

00:32:32

So you can have a philanthropic institution that, on one hand, could give a grant to support young people and turning out to the streets to close down the California youth prison system. And on the same hand, is the same institution that's benefiting off of the incarceration, exploitation of people. So these are the ways that philanthropy continues to, unfortunately, undermine that political project of creating a more perfect democracy.

00:33:03

These resources could and should be in the public sector to provide access to good quality food, to provide access to good public transportation—all the things that we know are essential and to a good quality of life. And so, those are the challenges with philanthropy as an institution. And…

00:33:25

>> Konda Mason

Do you advocate for no philanthropy? Do you think—can it be shifted in a different way? Just like [how] we're reimagining everything else that you spoke about?

00:33:39

>> Nwamaka Agbo

That's a good question. I don't want to say no—that it couldn't shift. It's just not clear to me who stands to benefit and who would be harmed if it were to shift and continue on as private wealth institutions. I do think I've heard from some community organizers that don't necessarily want foundations to be a spend-out track—like the Kataly Foundation is. 

00:34:10

Our amazing donors decided to set the vision for this to be a spend-out foundation, where we were going to redistribute, regenerate capital and wealth back out into communities rather than having the foundation exist in perpetuity. And so, there are some organizers who would say we actually want you to be around so you continue to resource our work. So I think it's a good debate for social movements to have, and to interrogate the reliance on philanthropy as a sector.

00:34:46

That being said, I do think that there are benefits. There are ways that philanthropies can really help to address a lot of the hurt and harms that have happened to these same communities. I think a recent example that I was moved to learn about is the work of Stacy Abrams and organizations like the New Georgia Project, and [unintelligible— senufo?] in Georgia. And the ways that they had a vision around what it would look like to, once again, create a more perfect democracy in Georgia that is more inclusive—a Black-led multi-racial alliance. And their work started over a decade ago. 

00:35:30

So while we just saw the winds of this past election cycle with the Georgia state seats—senate seats—and turning the state blue. What we know is that this is a vision that Stacy had over 10 years ago, and philanthropy came in and resourced that vision from the beginning, and invested in that vision, and helped to build out the electoral infrastructure that then made it possible, for not only the shift in Georgia to happen, but then the outcomes of—and now having a democratic majority in the state senate. 

00:36:03

So, philanthropy made that possible, right? So that's one of many examples of the ways that I think philanthropy can be engaged and leveraged to create systemic change—shifts to build power for Black and brown communities. Whether it's resourcing networks like the Movement for Black Lives, organizations like the NDN Collective. 

00:36:30

There are ways and opportunities for philanthropy to show up and rise to the occasion. The question is—will philanthropy do that? Will philanthropy fundamentally resource organized efforts that would undermine their own existence? That's the crux of it, and we hope that these philanthropists that mean well would do that. But what we have seen so far is that the wealth divide has only continued to grow, and we see that philanthropies continue to question the knowledge, the expertise, the experience of Black and brown communities—even when they say, “this is my experience” and “this is what I need to resource.” 

00:37:18

So yeah, I would say all that to say—why I am excited to be in this work with the Kataly Foundation, with our amazing team, there's a couple of reasons: One, we have donors that have done a lot of their… So, this is interesting. As a social justice organizer, I always look at the systems change, the practices, and the policies, right? And I also understand that there's a role for individual transformation. And so the donors that seeded the capital for Kataly Foundation—Regan Pritzker and Chris Olman—had done a lot of personal work, where they—as white wealthy individuals—were able to make a commitment to redistributing a portion of their wealth through the Kataly Foundation. 

00:38:14

And so they created and capitalized the foundation with a commitment to have a foundation focused on supporting Black and Indigenous and communities of color-led and organized projects in the areas of Restorative Economics. We have an Environmental Justice Resourcing Collective and we have a Mindfulness and Healing Justice Program area, and so all of those resources will go into prioritizing Black and brown and Indigenous communities that span across those three program areas.

00:38:49

And so, for me, the ability to not only work with those individuals who were able to continue to organize other wealthy donors and other trustees of other board organizations is—that I, myself, as a youngish looking Black woman—have been entrusted as the leadership of this foundation. And so I get to show up in my fullness, and my Blackness of it all in terms of how I then support our team. So I get to come to this work as a practitioner-funder—as someone who's worked on policy, and done direct actions, and worked on electoral campaigns, and helped projects go from vision to design to implementation. 

00:39:29

I can bring all of that to then inform our understanding of how do we then move resources to these projects in a way that we're not just moving the grant dollars and the non-extractive investment capital, but we're also sharing our skills and our expertise with these projects, so that they are able to go into these projects with a full understanding of what it takes. And so to have to be in a leadership position with a foundation where we get to redistribute resources—we get to support projects where we are lifting up the leadership and the brilliance of Black and indigenous communities of color. 

00:40:09

And we're starting to model for philanthropy what does it look like to truly support practitioners on the ground and making the full decisions of where those resources should go, and how they should flow then allows me to go back and talk to my other peers and colleagues in philanthropy about there is a different way to go about this. And let's actually wrestle with that. 

00:40:31

So the last thing I'll say on this point is—you know, it's interesting—you had shared some of the philanthropies I had consulted with when I was a consultant, and so it's interesting to have engaged some of these philanthropies as a consultant. And now, them inviting me to engage as a CEO of another foundation. 

And while it's still the same Nwamaka on either side, the ways that they engage me, and the power of my position means that I not only have the privilege, but the responsibility to leverage my role to speak truth to power. I continue to say the things that I said to them as a consultant, but now get to say to them as a colleague and a peer in the field, and I get to invite them to accompany us on a journey where we're not professing to have it all figured out, but we are willing to support people that want to learn and be in the praxis of the work, and take some experiments, and innovate, and figure out how do we get to a closer truth of what justice and liberation looks like.

00:41:41

>> Konda Mason

You know, I never thought about that—how those same people… now you come back as a peer. That is actually leading the field. You're leading the field. Kataly is, without a doubt, leading the field. And how that dynamic must be in your life now—that's interesting. I hadn't thought about that. And I'm sure it must show up all the time. You know, what I'm interested in, Nwamaka—how do you resource yourself? Your internal resource—how do you resource yourself?

00:42:24

>> Nwamaka Agbo

Oh, I wasn't ready for this one. Me, personally? 

00:42:27

>> Konda Mason

You, personally. Nwamaka Agbo. How do you resource yourself?

00:42:32

>> Nwamaka Agbo

Yeah, I will say that this is… I recognize that this is a moment where I need to deepen my practices. I need to continue to come back to center. I need to continue to surround myself with those people that will give me all the truth telling while holding me in love. I would say that on the surface level, exercise is really important to me. Not just for the physical stamina, but more for the mental stamina. I have a ritual—it's not even just an exercise practice—it's a ritual of exercising in the morning that allows me to go through a set of affirmations. And the physical push—the ways that I have to affirm myself that I can handle and reach new heights in my exercise is what I know I need to be able to do in my work. And so that kind of helps to prepare me for the day. 

00:43:36

And, I'm also committed to sleep. I've been searching for all the best tools for good quality sleep—whether it's the earbuds, the sleep mask, the stress-free gummies—but really recognizing that sleep and sweat are the things that have helped me to start and close my day.

00:44:03

So just on a day-to-day basis, that is how I resource myself. And one of the things that I'm observing about this role is that it also forces me to get really clear about who my people are. Like, my “people” is a lot of people, but the people that both hold me accountable and hold me in community. It starts to get smaller and smaller because you start to just get clear about who is there to see you succeed knowing that your success means shifts for the communities that we are advocating for. 

00:44:44

And so, continue to deepen relationships with a number of people that I know want me to be my best and highest self. I've grappled with having a strong meditation practice, but I would say in this moment I'm struggling to resource myself a little bit more. I'm recognizing the isolation of the position I guess I would say. To be honest. Which just comes with the privilege of the role as well. It's just—you don't get to both lead a multi-million dollar foundation, and then just be like, well I'm just gonna hang with everybody. It's like, no you have a responsibility for how you show up in certain spaces. And you have to take that really seriously. So I probably said too much for a podcast. 

00:45:43

>> Konda Mason

It’s real.

00:45:55

>> Nwamaka Agbo

But I think if I could offer the other piece that I'm struggling with or I'm observing, Konda, is—because I come from a value of the collective, it is interesting to also recognize the importance of my role, so I'm always toggling back and forth with how much is it important for me to assert myself as the Black female leadership in this work. It's not in my nature,but I know it's important. So there's also just some personal development pieces that I'm moving through in this role. 

Even though I'm not the person with wealth, I sign on the dotted line for a lot of things, and so what does it mean to both make sure that I am not invisibilized in my role, in my position. How do I do that with the level of humility and humbleness—is something that I'm leaning into and learning about.

00:47:05

>> Konda Mason

Yeah. It's interesting because I think about you in this position, and I know that in this world, money is power. And even though it really isn't the truth, it's just an agreement that we all make. We make an agreement that it’s power. But that agreement is pretty agreed upon. And where you sit now is—you have the position of power, and I couldn't ask for a better person to have the kind of power that you—and I'm just going to be you know straight up—the kind of power that you have right now, because of how you are directing everything that you said this this evening on this podcast.

00:48:01

And everything that you do when you go to bed tonight, when you wake up tomorrow, and what you're going to do tomorrow, and what you did today, and what you did yesterday—you are actually living the lived experience. This is not theory. It started that way, I'm sure, like grappling with how is this working, how does this work. 

00:48:24

And then to be able to operationalize it for real, in communities and make impact the way you do, and have your peers looking. And you're being able to lead… it's—I gotta say, it feels to me something is shifting. Something is really shifting for this opening, because there's other people. I see the field. 

00:48:52

I would love to just ask my last question, honestly, is about the field. What are you seeing in the field right now? I mean we talk about philanthropy. We talked about some of the drawbacks and the wealth accumulation that it does, and the kind of harm. And, in addition to that, something is shifting. I see an opening. I see people who are understanding everything that you're saying. I think about RUNWAY. I think about Buen Vivir. There's so many people in the field right now. What are you seeing from your vantage point? 

00:49:29

>> Nwamaka Agbo

Yeah. When it comes to the field on the ground, the people that are doing the work, I see our communities continuing to be resilient and innovative out of necessity, right. So when you talk about Jessica's work with RUNWAY, I mean, homegirl’s been seeing it and knowing it for long before. And so, what is interesting is that I believe in the capacity of people to develop, and innovate, and figure out how to survive. And sometimes thrive, in spite of all the pressures against them. And so there's a lot of great, exciting work and projects happening out there. And I think the opportunity for funders is to figure out—can we catch up to where the field is at? Can policy catch up to what people are already creating and innovating? And so, if we can start to really lift up and show how… 

00:50:37

I mean, you probably recall back when you were coaching me through Soul the City, right? That people were like—oh, that's not a real thing. The solidarity economy won't happen at scale. There's not enough projects. And now, we can talk about—from REAL People's Fund, to Seed Commons to all the things—you couldn't stop talking about all the projects we see taking place. And so for me, that is really exciting. And I think we will see more of that continue to happen

00:51:08

The other thing I want to lift up about these projects is that people are actively building not what's politically feasible, right—not what can be negotiated or amended away in a piece of legislation. But what they know is fundamentally necessary to thrive and to win. And so, when you opened and talking about our ancestors yelling, like, these are people that are deeply listening to “don't limit yourself by the smallness of someone's inability to see you free.” Bring yourself into liberation. And so that's what these projects are really lifting up.

Chapter 3: The Shift From Charity to Solidarity

00:51:44 

I think what I'm observing then in the field of philanthropy—[I can] share a small story: there was this person who had reached out to me a couple weeks ago or about a month ago and they're like, “I want to interview you for a story on racial justice philanthropy.” And I was like—you know what? I can't be bothered. I don't know how many different ways I have to tell you folks what it looks like to just invest in communities of color. 

And so the person followed up with me again. And so I opened by asking them, “how is this study supposed to be different?  Tell me what people don't get after the murder of George Floyd and the uprisings that followed. After we went through it with Trayvon Martin and Mike Brown and Sandra Bland. What is philanthropy not understanding when people say racial justice philanthropy, right? 

00:52:39

What is interesting—this inverse when we were talking about the people seeing the stories as fixed structures—I do think people that have never imagined or can't comprehend a free Black and brown people do see these structures—the way that we do investments, the requirements for market rate, the way we do diligence—as fixed. And so I do see philanthropies trying to grapple with—well, when they ask how do we do this differently—it's a legitimate question, because their imagination has been limited by the structures that they have also bought into. 

00:53:25

So while—you know, sometimes I have to catch my breath, roll my eyes, okay. 

00:53:32

>> Konda Mason

[Laughs] You know, right, suck your teeth. [laughs]. 

00:53:35

>> Nwamaka Agbo

But there are those that are wanting to learn. And what is great, I think—I always like to lift up the work of Crystal Hayling’s project the Democracy Front Lines Fund. Crystal got to a point with her work where—oftentimes philanthropy wants to learn first and then do. For the Democracy Front Lines Fund, Crystal required that foundations put up a commitment to resource a slate of Black-led organizations in order to learn. So commit the resources first, right. And then we can be in a learning process around it. 

00:54:17

And so, I'm trying to really lean into those philanthropies that reach out—they're like we want to learn what you're doing with Kataly. Tell us about the Restorative Economies Fund. So, great. How much do you want to commit to doing this work? Because they're used to engaging me as a consultant that's going to hold their hand and I was like, no. You reached out to me on my Kataly email address, so what I need to know is—if you're going to pull me away from supporting my team and moving our resources, are you willing to put something on the table for these communities? And that's the shift between going from charity to solidarity. 

00:54:56

What we are calling for now is, fundamentally, solidarity. People that are willing to take risks—which I don't actually see as risks—I see them as necessary investments for our collective liberation. But, those that are willing to commit the resources, to do the work towards really redistributing this wealth in a way that people can have more freedom and more justice. And so yeah, I think philanthropy would be so lucky if it could listen deeply to what's emerging on the grounds in communities and resource them. And like Vini Bhansali from Solidaire Network always says: resource us like you want us to win.

00:55:34

>> Konda Mason

Yeah. Right.

00:53:35

>> Nwamaka Agbo

Let's resource folks like we want them to win.

00:55:40

>> Konda Mason

I love it. You know, I can't help but just point out, too, when I think about you, I think about Crystal Hayling, and Jessica [Norwood], I mean, Stacy Abrams—a lot of people. We have not said and called out Black women, and the role that Black women are playing right now, and have always played. 

And what a pivotal point—t's like this pivotal moment when the world and America is actually seeing. And there's no more opportunity not to see anymore. The opportunity not to see is over. And it's in our face. It's in everybody's face and to see what the role that Black women are playing and leading us out of the madness; leading us into a bright future; leading us into liberation. It's incredible, and I am so happy to have a front row seat watching and engaging in what my sisters are doing… and I couldn't be more proud. I couldn't be more proud.

00:56:58

My last last question is usually the first question that I ask. And we got off to such a start. This is the first question I always ask—so the name of this podcast is the Brown Rice Hour, and there's a reason for it. I mean, it's a double entendre, you know. because I work in rice—as I think you know. And brown rice was a pivotal point in my life when I changed my diet, you know. I did this macrobiotic thing. This was in the 70s, and I was sick most of my life with stomach issues and different issues, and when I went macrobiotic—and brown rice is an important part of my healing, so I love brown rice. It's just one of those things. And I'm a foodie. I'm a foodie. So one of the things that I usually start this podcast with is asking people: what was your comfort food growing up? What was your comfort food, and who prepared it? 

00:58:14

Well you know, it's gonna be my mama. Sophia Agbo, who is an amazing cook. And we had the pleasure of eating Nigerian food in our home. What is interesting—there's two foods that come up for me: one is plantains. Like you know, there are memes around how people around the world eat their plantains, and we like our plantains very, very ripe, and fried. And so plantains was always the first thing I would eat off of my plate. 

00:58:53

My mom is a fantastic cook, and she used to also make this thing called egusi soup. And it's almost like a ground pumpkin seed that you make a soup out of with palm oil and greens, and then you eat it with fufu or pounded yam. Whatever it may be—just so so delicious. Those are the things that I've been missing the most. I haven't seen my mom since May. She only lives a few hours away, but…

00:59:30

>> Konda Mason

Because of COVID? 

00:59:33

>> Nwamaka Agbo

Mmhm, yeah. But that comfort food of the plantains and the egusi soup and the fufu that just fills your belly. I think those are some of my… I wish when I was younger I appreciated it more. Because now as an adult, I try to make it, and it never…

00:59:47

>> Konda Mason

I was gonna ask you—don't you make it? Did you learn?

00:59:49

>> Nwamaka Agbo

I did, I try it… I do but it's not the same.

00:59:51

>> Konda Mason

It's not the same? You haven't just perfected your own version of your mom's?

00:59:49

>> Nwamaka Agbo

She does—she puts a little something… you know—when you ask your mom, well, tell me how you made the thing. And they don't ever want to tell their secrets. There's no recipe. There's no measurements. And so, you know. I'll keep testing it out, though. One day.

01:00:06

>> Konda Mason

Keep doing it. You got to keep doing it. And I would like to be invited over one day, because that sounds really really good to me.

01:00:13

>> Nwamaka Agbo

We can do that. We can do that.

01:00:16

>> Konda Mason

I love it. Well thank you, Nwmaka, for being here with me. Thank you for you. Thank you for you, and your mother. I want to thank your mother for bringing you into this world because our mothers, our Black moms, are really—you know—they hold it down. They have held it down. They have held it down, and I want to thank her, and thank you for who you are, and what you bring, and I just am thrilled. Real thrilled. When I first moved to Oakland—when I met you, I thought: she's a superstar. She is a superstar.

01:00:55

>> Nwamaka Agbo

Thank you for having me. Thank you for indulging me and my very long and wordy comments. And I look forward to working with you, and the work that you're doing and what you're learning. I'm really excited for the collective movement of what our people are up to. So, yeah, hopefully we'll circle back in a couple of years to do a recap on where we're at.

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